Category: News and Views
Oh I am fired up as hell right now! Look at this letter to the editor in the Savannah paper! Whiny fellow blind people just sad because they are losing their sweatshop jobs! Here was my comment to the letter:
Blind people wouldn't need these services if they were just treated like everyone else in society. We don't need special jobs, we don't need special places to work. The funding is drying up for everyone. Why not do something about it and maybe make people not so dependent on these programs by treating everyone equal. Equal work for equal pay! I may be blind, but I don't sit around crying about funding. I take action by finding work for myself, not relying on government programs to find jobs for me or having them pay for my education just because I am blind.
And let's face it, braille is out of style no longer needed! Its called the 21st century! It would be like sighted people crying because they were turning to all digital books. Who wants to carry huge braille books around anyway? I haven't dealt with a braille book in years! Get with the times and stop making blind people look like whiny babies!
Funds to help Georgia’s blind drying up
On Wednesday, Jan. 23, 2013, members of the National Federation of the Blind of Chatham County and members of the Savannah Council of the Blind traveled to Atlanta to attend our annual “Blind Day at the Capital” seminar.
The theme of this year’s seminar was “You Can’t Cover Up the Truth.”
The Rehabilitation Service Administration in the state of Georgia will completely run out of state and federal funds beginning Feb. 1, 2013. This means that blind individuals, as well as others with physical disabilities will not be able to receive rehabilitation services until the next fiscal year, which begins on July 1, 2013.
In other words, those who are in need of employment opportunities and other rehab services will not be able to receive such services. The reason why the funds will not exist is because the state of Georgia has to match the federal dollars, which are sent to the state through the federal government Because we have not been able to match these federal dollars, the money that should be available to rehab recipients, as well as agencies serving the blind and disabled have been going to other states, such as Pennsylvania, New York and Mississippi.
Without these federal dollars, the agencies cannot serve their clientele that are in need of employment training, independence training and so forth. Some of these agencies may have to close their doors until adequate funding is once again made available through RSA.
We also discussed the urgent matter of getting sponsors in the Georgia House and Senate to sponsor a Braille Literacy Bill. Most blind and visually impaired persons who are gainfully employed can read and write Braille quite fluently. Unfortunately, our public school systems throughout the state of Georgia are not adequately equipped to teach the blind and visually impaired students proper reading and writing of Braille.
What we need are instructors who are well-certified to teach blind students in our public schools the Braille reading and writing skills. Keep in mind, Braille is to blind people as print is to the sighted.
We are also aware of the fact that within our public school systems, they are about to adopt a total electronic format in regard to students’ textbooks. Those of us in the blind community must make sure that blind and visually impaired students are not left out of the equation.
What we will all need to do in regard to these issues is to call or write our state legislators and let them know that something needs to be done as soon as possible.
Also, we should contact Gov. Nathan Deal and ask him to personally get involved to help resolve these critical issues currently confronting the blind and disabled communities.
TYRONE PALMER
National Federation of the Blind of Chatham County
http://savannahnow.com/opinion/2013-02-10/letters-editor-monday
Letters to the Editor Monday
savannahnow.com
As a visually impaired citizen looking for work, I can honestly see where you are coming from... to a point. While bulky braille books are quite passee, I have to say that braille in and of itself is not. Being able to read and write braille assists in many aspects of life such as proper spelling, grammar, and formatting. As excellent a tool as a screen reader is, unless you want it showing you how to spell - a very laborious process - it is not the only way to read and write.
As for the funding, in an ideal world, parents and schools would teach the visually impaired how to conduct themselves in business and everyday life, and I am not going to be the only one to say that we do NOT live in an ideal world. Training costs money, and the money has to come from somewhere. Technology is expensive, and the money has to come from somewhere...
I cannot disagree with some of your thoughts on the article, but I cannot agree wholeheartedly either. If you have ever received funding or assistance obtaining anything you have received - from parents, school systems, the government, NFB, ACB, whoever - then you have no right to come off half-cocked telling the NFB that they are whiny fellow blind people.
Kate
Hello.
I feel like you have great intentions. I do not support these sheltered workshops, and I wish they could be done away with as well.
However, you need to realize that it is a job of some people, one of which they feel is their only option. Therefore, for whatever their reasoning, they will be upset if it is taken from them. It's the same as if you rent a house in a great neighborhood, but the landlord can't keep it, or sell it, so the bank has to liquidate it.
Also, I disagree completely that Braille is insignificant in today's society. Many jobs require the use of Braille. It would make it impossible for some to do certain tasks, and force people to try and do something they may enjoy less if Braille was done away with. Hell, the other day, my computer was not working, but thankfully I have the device I am currently typing with. My BrailleNote Apex. Also, many people prefer to read books in Braille for leisure, rather than listen to audio recordings with annoying robotic voices or uninthused readers.
aSo, like I said, I'm all in support of doing away with sweatshops and sheltered workshops for the blind, but just realize people will react, and it is a huge undertaking that will not happen right away. People will always try and undermine and underestimate our potential. Of course it's not right, but it's our responsibility to correct misconceptions and be assertive, not aggressive, about it.
first of all, Braille is not outdated. there are other ways to access Braille books, nowadays (for instance, Web-Braille) which is provided through the national library service for the blind and physically handicapped. that doesn't require people to lug around books, if it's really that big a deal to you.
secondly, rehabilitation services exist for those who are unable to pay for the equipment they need. so, I don't agree that they're a detriment to society.
I just don't get the mentallity of sheltered workshops being the only option. WHy exploit yourself? You are worth more than that! It would be like me saying I am a professional musician but the only work I can find is for a $10 performing job in some crappy bar. Start respecting yourselves or sighted people will never treat you equal!
Here's the problem. Until you have a resume with work experience - good, bad, or ugly, you can be the most confident interviewee in the world, and a company still won't take you seriously because your pride is too big to pay your dues.
No one wants to see a sweatshop on a resume. Why put yourself through that? I just don't get it!
AFMUnionMusician, I don't think anyone here has praised sheltered workshops. all that has been said is that for some people, that line of work is sometimes all they know. that's very different than saying something like, "it's all blind people are good for."
Exactly. I am not saying that this is right, but we all have to start somewhere. My first job was a part-time receptionist. I barely made enough to keep food on my tbale, but it was enough. Sweat shops may not give you pride in what you do, but it will show prospective employers that you are not afraid to work, and work hard.
My only goal is to help fellow workers gain better wages and better working treatment. I am still new to this job, so forgive me if I seem aggressive, but I just don't want people to be exploited. It does not need to happen especially in this country. It is the same reason we are trying to organize Walmart. I am one of the organizers in training at Making Change at Walmart. We understand you have to start out somewhere, but you don't need to starve or be exploited due to your disability or anything else.
You know what, I do get it fellow workers. Before I found the union, I would perform for anyone because I thought it was fun even if I got paid $10 or less. Its something you have to discover for yourself, value of your work and yourself as a person.
Ok, first of all, I think others have made my point but I'll go ahead and also say that braille is not obselete. I wouldn't have been nearly as successful in school or the 4 jobs i've held throughout my life without it.
Also, just pulling oneself up by the boot straps is great in theory for those of us who were born blind but what about the person who goes blind during adulthood. There's a crazy amount of skills that person will have to learn. Having worked in the field of rehabilitation, the majority of my clients were in this exact situation. If there's no funding for those services, what is this person supposed to do?
I think your perspective is a bit narrow and honestly, in your response, you don't represent the community of people who are blind very well. you actually come off sounding like a bit of an ass.
I understand people later in life struggle if they lose their sight, but that does not mean they should be subjected to less than minimum wage jobs and have someone paid tell them how to run their life.
I guess I must be missing something here because I don't know of anyone who is blind who has been told what to do with his or her life. Who exactly is forcing these people to do this kind of work or telling them that it's their only option?
Maybe I've just been lucky to live where I live and have had good experiences. I'm notsaying it couldn't or doesn't happen but I don't think it's nearly as prolific as you make it sound.
Perhaps I may sound like an ass myself after saying this, but I'm not going to stand up for something because someone tells me I should. So, to be quite frank, I'm not going to protest against sheltered workshops simply because you tell me to. I'll do it if I have the time of day, and if it has a direct relation on my daily life.
I'd also like to add my point of view with rehabilation services. Coming from a background where I have limited help from family financial wise, it would be obsurd of me not to take such an opportunity. I use a BrailleNote apex which the state graciously paid for, which is about $6,000 plus. Also, I have Jaws software which alone costs thousands more to purchase, and I would not have been able to afford to go to college if it wasn't for OVR. They also paid a sum of my college tuition, because I am willing to bust my ass and earn great grades. Though I didn't do as well as I expected and/or wanted my first semester, I am determined to prove to them that I will pick up strongly from where I left off.
You, on the other hand, have been talking the talk, but the question is what walk do you walk. I feel as though you want to be noticed somehow, and it kind of reminds me of those people who come on here and try to get followers in some crazy program.
I am not saying people should not use these services. I just think the letter the way it was writen made us blind people look like we feel sorry for ourselves.
If you think this letter made it look to you like we feel sorry for ourselves, then you need to read the news more. People have been writing letters like this for years now. When congress couldn't get a budget, people wrote letters exactly like this about the homeless, about hospitals, about clinics, about the military, about police forces, about infrastructure, about national parks and a whole host of other things that are paid for in part or in whole by government funding. Its not just the blind.
Plus, I didn't see anywhere in that article the words sheltered workshops. I'd be willing to bet that the person who wrote it wasn't even talking about sheltered workshops. They were talking about rehabilitation services, not vocational services. Though they are both going to suffer for a lack of funding, sheltered workshops are under vocational training, not rehabilitation training. Rehabilitation is hiring mobility instructors to show you how to get around the neigborhood you just moved into. Its paying for college training for blind students. Its buying technology so that the blind people can have the equal jobs you seem to be touting.
You're cutting yourself with your own sword here. On one hand you say we shouldn't be exploited, which I agree with, but then you rant and rail against services which would allow us to live and exist and work on an equal footing with the sighted world. Rehabilitation services allow us to have as equal an opportunity as we can, and for some reason you're saying we should not use them. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.
And as a last point, braile is not obselete. Latin is obselete because no one uses it in conversation anymore. Gaelic is obselete because no one uses it anymore. Braille is still used, and still performs a service that no other technology can accomplish. If you want a real world example, I'd like you to point out a place that has screen readers for the signs on the office doors. I garrantee you, that place doesn't exist. They use braille, and if you don't know it, you're going to have to ask for help. But you just railed against a government assistive program, so where do you draw the line?
Honestly, right now you're just coming off as pompous and hippocritical.
Because I'm very detail oriented, I would love to know specific details. I don't need to know where every fold of the suit is, but a vivid description of posture,e expression and manner of dress would be great.
I think AFMUnionMusician means well; he/she obviously feels very passionate about this subject, which I don't think is a bad thing. and I agree on some points. I disagree like others have said that braille is no longer needed. and that rehabilitation services are something we should avoid using. Maybe the type of service given varies from state to state but the service here in New York are very helpful, and for the most part I've had positive experiences. As far as job searching goes I've never been told what I should or shouldn't do. There are numerous opportunities out there available to everyone but it requires a lot of time and effort to find what's right for you.
I have had bad experiences with voc rehab, and yes I am only trying to help and I am new to what I am doing so I might come across aggressive. I have had plenty of voc rehab people tell me I am nothing and should just go work at Goodwill. I just am trying to help others not go through what I went through.
I think it is a shame a state as rich as this one should not have money for rehabilitation services.
I don’t know if you are aware of all the things rehabilitation services do for the blind, but these services are much needed and required.
As pointed out equipment is expensive, computers, screen reading software, even a device as simple as a cane cost around $35, and frankly everyone can’t afford these items.
A sighted person can get buy with a dollar pen and some paper, but we cannot.
I don’t agree with paying the blind less for the work they do, but if it requires a sheltered work place so that a blind person can have a job and gain his or her self esteem I am 100% for it. To be able to earn a few dollars for some people on their own is a great esteem booster, and if a place has a product I use, I’d even be willing to pay a bit more for that product if I knew for sure the sale of it provided these jobs.
I truly wish things were different, but they are not, so we need to support all programs.
I also didn’t see this letter as begging, and as posted many other organizations do exactly the same thing to keep afloat. Again, it is a shame these programs were allowed to languish.
As to braille, you are forgetting that hearing a book, and not being able to see how things are actually written causes many blind persons to not spell well, or even understand the English language.
Next you are forgetting that all blind persons can not hear and require braille to conduct daily life. Even the hearing benefit from braille, because many times something read is easier to comprehend then just hearing it.
I am a braille user and use it daily for the simplest task like writing a note to myself, taking down a phone number while on the telephone, or major use like reading a book, magazine. I benefit from braille on elevators, bathrooms, room numbers, a you name it.
I am sometimes out late at night and need to take the elevator down to the ground floor from an entertainment venue. How would I know the correct button to press for the main floor without braille when I and my blind date are the only persons in the elevator? Must we wait until someone comes along to help us, maybe missing the train, or a taxi in the process, because we can’t simply find main on the panel?
I could go on about your post, but in closing I’d like to ask you what you do for a living except play music?
Next have you benefited from any of these services at all? Be honest with your answers, and if so maybe rewrite that letter.
I am a union organizer in training and I do what I can for myself. I pay for my own equipment and when I did use what little funding programs I recieved I paid it back by serving in the Coast Guard. I don't get how people can sit around and say how great sheltered workshops are. Would a sighted person ever work somewhere for $1 a day to improve their self esteem, I don't think so!
You served in the coast guard? Do you know how much federal funding the coast guard receives?
Next, do you know how fortunit you were to even have a program that would except you, and probably how many special arrangements were made for you?
Where exactly did your funding come from? Maybe you are a person that has a great family back ground, so you could save money, or had money from some source.
Many blind persons do not have families that can do this for them. Credit education is not something they receive, and if you can't get credit, and you don't have family support where does your money come from?
When you go to college you rely on some funding from some place, so why not a program for the disabled?
I also forgot to say you were able to serve due to organizations such as the NFB and the ACB fighting for laws that enabled you to even ask to serve.
You might not like this situation, but it is what it is, and extremely important.
Everyone has the right to ask anything they want. No organization allows me to ask anything or do anything.
Of course not, but that organization made many arrangements for you. That is because of laws that were setup by these organizations like rehab.
I am not here to convince you, but I am strongly behind programs that assist the blind. I am also strongly behind braille.
to the poster who said AFMMusician seems passionate, I disagree. passion is very different than someone talking the talk, without walking the walk, repeating the same thing over and over again, and being hypocritical, which is what we're seeing here.
passion is standing up for what you believe, having evidence to back up your claims, and knowing how to convey your point, while at the same time, hearing others out when they present facts you may not have considered.
I studied medical transcription at the Chicago lighthouse, and right upstairs was the sheltered workshop. I took a tour through there; some of the blind folks weren't only blind from birth, but had mental challenges as well. They were very proud of working on the assembly line making clocks. Those who could work their way out of the shop certainly did that too. I think those shops are necessary for multiple handicapped folks.
Fellow workers, As a central labor council delegate I would like to appologize for this post that I made yesterday. It was pointed out to me by a more experienced union sister in a leadership position that I came across as sounding like management and I did not mean for it to at all. I was speaking of vocational rehabilitation. I have had extremely bad experiences with those programs and maybe I got upset about how they treated me and it came off in my post. I just want all of us with disabilities to have a good chance to be treated equal in the work we do and in the world. Its why I went to study independent living in Canada instead of here because of how the people in those training places here treated me telling me I will be nothing and work at Goodwill the rest of my life folding pizza boxes and that music is a stupid career. I don't have a problem at all with people getting the training, I just don't want us to be seen as dependent. I just want to be normal. Once again I appologize for sounding like management. I know that what I post reflects my union and the entire labor movement.
Unfortunately that happens a lot. Certain state Voc-Rehab agencies are worse than others.
Okay, let’s suppose you were sounding like management. Have you thought about many of the points that have been brought up here?
If you were management in 3 suggestions or decisions you hurt half the group you are trying to protect. The other half you leave severely dependent.
The one suggestion that could and would do this is to eliminate braille.
You, yourself have benefited from braille, am I correct? You may not have used it for a long time, but most likely is the reason you understand writing structure, and how to spell, or pose a written argument, such as you have here.
When you were in school, I’d guess math was thought you using a braille method, unless you are now totally deponent on a calculator.
How do you know you are entering the correct bathroom if you have no one to ask if it is the man’s or women’s?
All I write and ask you is not to be mean, but to get you to think about what you suggest. Maybe you have had bad experiences with rehabilitation services, but that doesn’t mean they are all bad for everyone.
You had money, and some help to get to Canada I’d think. How many people do you think have this benefit, and if they did would it have been all that much better?
If you are managing, you have to think about the group you are dealing with, and not your personal gripes, and disappointments. Have you done this?
I do think that management for the most part does exactly as you do, in that it does what is best for it and not the group, so maybe you were correct to say you are thinking this way, however, give it some more thought.
I question the Coast Guard reference. Unless he was a civil employee, there is no paid position for a coast guardsman who is blind. For us as the blind, all that we can do is be part of the volunteer corps. Don't get me wrong: I am both humbled and honored to serve in that capacity. But the volunteer corps among other things is not law enforcement, and so is not combat-ready and we are not allowed to carry a weapon when in uniform. Our jobs are non-combat missions. And the reasons that the blind and other groups are not allowed into active duty has everything to do with the combat readiness.
They don't even have a fitness requirement for us volunteer people. I myself may strive to be competitive fitness-wise with active duty people of my own age range, but that is a personal decision. I will never earn a dime from the U.S. Coast Guard, not as a serving member. The only way one could do that and be blind is by getting hired in a civil capacity, working in their offices and the like.
As to the blind services things: they are not making us do anything. By way of an example, I was sent to this career place for the blind, to enlist there or something, and so I went and presented documentation and a resume of my accomplishments at the time. I was fresh out of college. Without opening the packet, she said, "We need to change your goal. Have you considered telemarketing?"
What in the crimeny blue fuck was that? She didn't open the envelope. I know, because it was the old brown kind with the clasp. That is not something one could do so silently that the blind could not hear it. Plus I would have heard shuffling of paper as she had leafed through it.
I got up and left, and she made some note that went to the Commission people about something to do with uncooperative, and I couldn't have cared less.
Point is, they couldn't put a gun to my head, arrest me, cuff me, and make me go there. Perhaps there are things that need to change, I agree with that. More money to get people Braille displays, and more time ditching fool programs that are just psychobabble and religionbabble and all of that stuff that doesn't make any sense to the rest of us.
But I fail to see how that is going to be accomplished by a labor union. Son, even as a young man, unions were heavily in disfavor: often seen as over-inflated, politically bureaucratic and out of touch. Now it's even worse. Mention union in many circles and you're done. And where are you going to collect your dues? From whom? A union represnets only those who pay to be represented.
The historical fallout was greater than that, sure. But this is how it actually works in practicality.
Anyway as usuall I rambled over lunch here and not real concise but there it is, a few things that stuck out to me.
I agree with what has been said. if you were thinking like management, AFMMusician, you'd keep your personal gripes out of it, and figure out what works best for everyone, rather than spouting something simply cause it sounds good, or you've found a few people who've had bad experiences like you and are trying to change it, through griping.
OK. first of all, this letter says nothing about sheltered workshops and has nothing to do with those places. It is addressing the need for funding for rehabilitation services. Rehabilitation services does not equal blindy sweatshops. It is state funded assistance for blind persons to receive traing in order to live independently and to ultimately complete a vocational goal that will lead to employment. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. Unfortunately it happens. The quality of service varies from state to state. But your bad experience doesn't rule it out as a viable option for others. And if someone gets training and chooses to go work for a sheltered workshop, then so be it. It's not for me, but I know several people who work at the workshop here and they are happy. It gives them something to do and helps them feel valued. It's unfortunate that they don't believe they can aspire for something better because of their blindness, but that is a flaw with their attitude toward blindness. It is not entirely the fault of the workshop system or rehabilitation services. Yes, Rehab services does sometimes steer people to these places. But you don't have to agree to it. You do have to believe in yourself, have higher aspirations and have the fortitude to fight to achieve your goals.
In my case, I became totally blind at the age of 32. I was working as an attorney at the time and knew that with proper training, I could continue to do so. I went to Rehab. The guy initially tried to steer me into the BEP program. I said no, as is my right as a client. My vocational goal was to retain my job as an attorney. I had to advocate for myself and be insistent about my goal, but I did get what I wanted. Ultimately, I was sent to a residential rehab center. I was told that NFB Centers were crazy and I shouldn't get involved with them. The center I went to was OK. I learned the basics over a 14 week period. I wish now, after having educated myself about NFB Centers, that I had gone to one instead of listening to anti NFB propaganda spouted by my counselor. But, whatever. The point is, I went to that center and worked my ass off. I learned grade 1 Braille on my own before I left for training because I wanted a head start. I taught myself how to touch type on my own before I left because I didn't want to take up time learning to type when I needed to learn how to use a screen reader. While I was at this center, I saw people come and go with crappy attitudes who were looking for some magic solution to their problems. They didn't put any effort into learning. They preferred to sit around and bitch about the system wasn't doing for them instead of working to get what they could out of it. I strongly believe that successful navigation through the rehabilitation process requires dedication and a willingness to learn on the part of the client. Proper attitude gets things done. Bitching about perceived injustices does not. I got as much as I could out of the training center I went to. I learned enough to survive, and most importantly, I learned how to problem solve and advocate for myself so that in the future, I could deal with new problems. I had to be persistent with my counselor to get what I wanted from rehab services. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't always pleasant, but it served it's purpose because I was willing to work and willing to stand up to my counselor and get what I needed from the system. Because of rehab services and my dedication to making the most out of a crappy situation, I was able to keep my job.
Perhaps there's some lesson you can take from my story. I don't know what happened to you, but I'm always skeptical when I hear someone trashing the rehab system. If your counselor wants to force you into a sweatshop, then go to his boss and his bosses boss and work your way up the chain of command until you get the training you want. It helps to be specific. Tell them the training you want, the job you want and the skills you will need to attain that goal. If what you tried in the past didn't work, then try something else. Trashing someone for trying to get funding for these services accomplishes nothing except making you look like a self righteous, arrogant schmuck. Maybe you had a bad experience because there isn't enough funding in your state resulting in poor services. The letter writer is trying to make the system better so others won't have experiences similar to yours.
As for Braille, no, it is not a waste of time. There is a 10% Braille literacy rate among blind adults. There is a 70% unemployment rate. If I'm remembering the stats correctly, something like 80% of blind people who are employed are Braille readers. Clearly, there is a correlation between literacy and employment. If you can't read print and you can't read Brail, you are illiterate. Listening is not reading. I learned Braill as an adult. I'm not a fast reader, but I learned it and I use it every day at work and at home. Yes, I still listen to JAWS and audio books to get things done more efficiently. But I wouldn't give up Braille for anything. I have a Braille display that goes everywhere with me. I have thousands of books and other materials at my fingertips through that display. I have never lugged around a giant Braille book because with technology, it is unnecessary. Braille is more relevant and portable now than ever before. You don't like it. Fine. But don't be all high and mighty and try to insist that it's not important and demanding better access to Braille instruction makes Blind people look whiny. It does not. It is blind people demanding equality and the same right to literacy and education as the sighted world. Have you ever heard of a school refusing to teach a sighted child to read? Can you imagine the outrage by the public if that happened? Yet it happens more often than not to blind children because school systems don't want to be bothered with teaching Braille or they do not have anyone qualified to teach Braille. Where's the outrage for blind children who are falling behind because they are denied an equal education? There is little outrage from the public because your average sighted person doesn't believe a blind child has a chance of succeeding at education or anything else anyway so blind children are deemed less important. As blind people, we know better. Braille is a tool that can allow a blind child to learn to read, write, spell and use grammar and punctuation correctly. It gives a blind child equal footing with his sighted peers and lets him keep up with everyone else.
We, the blind, are most qualified to speak for ourselves and fight for equality because we know what we can do and we know what we need to do it. That's what the author of this letter is doing. While that letter isn't as well written as I'd like to see, the issues it raises are important and good for the writer and his NFB Chapter for getting out there and trying to make a difference for the Blind in Georgia. As a representative of your union, you are fighting for what you perceive to be the needs of the workers you represent. The letter writer is doing the same thing. You don't have to agree with it but at least recognize that this guy is trying to do some good for the interests of the blind just as you try to do what you think is best for your union.
Beautiful.
I would like to see some feedback however from the poster. I am interested if anything here has caused a change of opinion, or if you have some more information to support your thoughts and beliefs?
I shal never ever appologize for trying to free oppressed workers. I am a unionist and future union organizer, proud union member representing my union in the central labor council, and I will always stand for what I believe is right. I will always do my best to help suffering workers if they want my help. I will always live union values to the best of my ability. I can't be so weak. I have to be union strong no matter what adversity I may face. I know that struggles of the labor movement will never be easy, and sometimes union family members will disagree with each other, but I can't keep giving in so easily feeling so ashamed of what I think. I want the best for all of my fellow workers and it kills me how my fellow disabled suffer and they don't know they are suffering. We need a change in this country to disabled programs. They need to be worker centered, good living wages, and union apprenticeship programs for all no matter what disability you have. All sheltered workshops would be unionized and the training programs the government has people would be treated right and be not put down for what they want to do with their life if I have my way. That's all I was saying yesterday. I just want my fellow workers to not be ashamed of who they are whether they are differently abled or not. They need to not let things stand in their way, not let fear control them. Management can be good at times, but don't let them brake you. I will follow this advice as well. We as people with disabilities can't let people think that we are less, we can't make it appear that way. We are equal, deserving of equal work and equal pay. If you work, you deserve minimum wage like everyone else no matter who you are. I understand not having opportunities. I have not had a lot myself, but that's the problem, we can change this if we with disabilities would not get down and sad and just get out there and help bring change. That's all I was trying to say fellow workers and union brothers and sisters. Sometimes I wish people would just read what I say and not take it the wrong way. I am doing the best I can to help end suffering.
It's not the fact that anyone is taking it the wrong way. The problem is your beliefs about how rehab should be restructured, about how the sheltered workshops need to be restructured, basically you have good intentions but it seems like you are going about it the wrong way.
I read exactly what you said. How about the braille issue? How about the fact the letter never stated anything about sheltered work places?
I really want to know what you think. Maybe go back and read your first post.
We are not talking union here, but life and managing it.
I must say the the OP sounds as though she is just spewing back what she has been told to say with no thoughts behind it. sounds like a sort of brainwashing to me. she has not addressed any of the responses, just keeps spouting union slogans. and, calling us all her union brothers and sisters. lol.
The Teamsters and the UAW are out to take over the world and man I love making thousands of dollars a month, don't I wish.
But you're still not replying to our points musician. I agree with you hat people who work in sheltered workshops should be paid more. I don't think they should be unionized because I think unions have served the purpose they were designed to do and should be done away with now. However, I do agree that those workers should be paid more. But that doesn't address the subject of the letter you posted at all. What are your responses to the points we've presented you? And please, give us your responses, not your union's responses. Because honestly, I'm not your union brothers and sisters, and I'm not going to be uniting with the workers of the world.
that's just it, Cody, I doubt she can give us responses she has actually thought out herself. I could tell from the get go that she was spouting stuff she has heard, which is the reason I can't even say she has good ideas.
I don't have time to deal with people that don't want our help. If you don't want us to help you, then go ahead and suffer and make low wages, and unions are not out dated. If it weren't for my union I would be making $20 a day.
No, if it weren't for your union you would be settling for twenty dollars a day. No one is forcing you to work in that job. You are more than welcome to go get a job somewhere else. You don't actually have to work in any one job. You're union didn't do crap for you. Your union did there job in return for your money. No union does anything for workers, they do it for the money of the workers. That's why no union is ever free to join. They used to be free to join, but not anymore. They are as much a big business as the big businesses they rail against.
Now, when did I ever say we didn't want your help? We just want evidence for your claims on this board post. If you have the opinions, which clearly you do, it shouldn't be hard for you to present your reason for having it. So what is your reason for having the opinion you've stated here?
P.S. I don't need your help, and I resent the implication of your claim. That is to say that no blind person can get a good job without help. I'm sure all the blind people with good jobs would be equally as offended. You really need to stop being a parrot and start forming yur own thoughts. Preferably ones which aren't narrow minded and offensive.
Did you know that labor unions made the following 36 things possible?
Weekends without work
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
Paid vacation
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Sick leave
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination
8-hour work day
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40-hour work week
Workers’ compensation (workers’ comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions
Workplace safety standards and regulations
Employer health care insurance
Collective bargaining rights for employees
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)
Sexual harassment laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday pay
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance
Privacy rights
Pregnancy and parental leave
Military leave
The right to strike
Public education for children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States
Thank a union member by buying union-made in America products!
And not to mention, most blind people get help finding jobs from voc rehab services, so don't give me that crap.
That contradicts your original post about how aweful you said they were, though.
I wasn't saying they were good, I just was saying I don't know one single blind person that hasn't gotten help from these crappy people, and you can't tell me the organized blind are better than our so called brainwashed unions.
There is now no structure to this argument, and you are arguing for the sake of arguing, and you are trying to prove me wrong. I have gotten plenty of help from the God aweful Rehab agency of Pennsylvania, and I am damn greatful for it, as I have mentioned before. So, rather than continue with this pointless discussion, I think it's time for me to go and prove to them how greatful I am by studying my schoolwork hard and raising my GPA even higher.
Its sad you want to make good grades just to plaes people that are just doing their jobs for a paycheck instead of doing it for yourself.
Its not a gift and I wish people would stop kissing so much government ass!
I never said that was my sole purpose of doing so, but nice try justifying. I'll give you a b for creativity.
Excuse the typo. I meant a c. That's why I'm not an education major. Lol, just kidding
Cody's right, not all of us have got government subsidies in order to get jobs. I actually think the subsidized model is as outdated in the 21st century as was the institutional model in the 20th, but some on here have presented really good arguments for their existence. I will admit to being a rogue man at heart and so those types of places and I were, to use a chick word, not made for each other.
Also Dirty Little Oar presented some very valid points about the Braille: I am a lifer and so I have always had access to Braille, and did not learn it as an adult, which must have been very much a challenge. I still strongly believe that Braille displays, rather than large books, is the way to go. My Coast Guard manuals would take up half a house in Braille, but they fit nicely into a iPhone and can be read from a Braille display.
I'd like to point out that the vast majority of the things on your list were from the sixties and before. Several of them were from the late 1800's. You're literally being proud of something that was done 150 years ago give or take. Oh, and the ADA wasn't done through unions, it was done through lobbyists. Its a law which includes the work place, but is not directed solely at the work place, so it doesn't come under the perview of labor unions. Some labor unions may have taken part in voicing their complaints about certain things, but it wasn't their baby.
So thank you for proving my point that unions are no longer needed. You served your job in the early part of last century. Now its time we get with the times and realize that the work place in america is pretty damn good comparatively, even the sheltered workshops. That's right I said it. The sheltered workshops, though I think they could an should be better, are a damned sight better than a coal mine in South America, or land mine collecting in the middle east or vietnam. We americans have had it so good for so long that we have forgotten what real suffering is.
Now, do you ever plan on addressing any of these points on here? I mean ever, you keep adding things, but you never answer us. Can you answer us, or are our arguments not covered on your union slogan card?
Lastly, yes, I've had help from rehabilitation centers. Not very much, but some. Guess what, everyone has. Sighted people get help from their parents or scholarships or loans. Everyone gets help, no one does it on their own. You seem to be the only one bitching about it. I'm proud of where I am, why aren't you?
Leo, have you ever had the problem of running out of room? I assume you have some way of keeping them organized, but like Braille, some documents and data also take up a substantial amount of space.
Yes, Ryan, and I use Dropbox for that. Not so much running out of room but certainly it's more efficient to have them stored in multiple locations.
A damn sight better than the days of 22 thick Braille volumes = one vest pocket abridged dictionary. Sorry, I lived it, modern ideologies aside. And yunno what? For some things I still use my slate: I have a notebook with some amateur radio stuff in it which I personally Brailled out for myself because I am not real good at the radios yet, and it's easier to look at a chart on paper. But I don't have to carry that thing with me anywhere: it's for programming the radio and repeaters and other things most people don't care about.
The other problem with the hardcopy Braille? You only get what they give you. They claim they will sell it to you, but only the things they themselves wish to publish. I showed up at a transcriptionist place's door, with cash and ready to pay, and they still turned me down back in the 80s. That was their right: it's a business, even if it was a nonprofit. But no thanks. I would rather die than return to those days. I very much appreciate being able to read things at the same time my sighted counterparts are reading them. I am very glad to not be the wanton subject of whatever the institutions deem worthy of transcribing to Braille. I really didn't want all the religious things and the Guideposts and other such completely meaningless fluff.
If I want the hardcopy Braille, I'll pull out the Perkins Brailler that now sticks and probably needs work done on it, and crank out my own, from a online source, by the way, and copying it by reading off of a Braille display.
It wasn't better in yesteryear: some of you all are starting to sound like the Greek Friend Tiffanitsa on this. And computers did not do away with Braille: there were people then who only listened to tapes, which is as horrid as it sounds: you can't jump to places like leafing through pages of a book, it's extremely linear only.
One other thing: I keep seeing now these statistics about how many of the blind use Braille and how many are employed and better employed (I assume you mean make more money?) because of Braille. Don't get me wrong: I appreciate mine, in particular the use of refreshable Braille and real live content, not the edited shit we used to get. But are these real numbers? Real statistics? I ask, because sometimes it comes off more like a religious dogma, or like our union postal worker here. Stats only mean something when you know how they were gotten and by whom.
I'm starting to question these Braille stats: it sounds like when my daughter was in fifth grade, she came outside, saw me smoking a cigar, and said: "Dad! My teacher says that because I saw you smoke I'm 97% more likely to smoke too!" She learned about stats that night. Most of you would agree that wasn't a real number: that's just a let's-scare-everybody number.
So to that end, I challenge anyone to simply produce where the stats come from, what research group did the polling, etc. I'm asking because many of you who cite these statistics are intelligent people, and I'm willing to go ahead and ask, since you're not often doing slogans and the like. Don't get me wrong: I use Braille extensively. But it's not a religion or a passion or a hobby, it's just a way for us to read and write.
You all are right to challenge the original poster's slogans, though I spent a year around postal workers, and I hate to say it, I don't think you're gonna get anywhere in terms of real data from those kind of people.
Very well said LeoGuardian and thank you for your service in the volunteer part of the Coast Guard. I served there in radio operations for a few years in Minnesota. I am however not a postal worker but a union organizer and musician by profession though I respect my brothers and sisters that are postal workers. They are trying to cut their hours.
I am at least professional enough not to use profane language. I did not talk like that to you and it makes you look like a complete asshole.
Sorry wrong post hahaha! Meant that for another topic.
Jesus jumping christ on a flaming green pogo stick. You can't even tell when someone is insulting you. Seriously, just shut up and stop making yourself look more stupid with every keystroke.
You think you can tell me what to do? Who do you think you are my father? I don't think so! Nice try!
Damned right I'm not your father. I wouldn't have raised such an idiot who couldn't think for themselves.
Is that all you can say? Wow I'm so defeated, not. I have dealt with plenty of you right wing nuts serving for phone banking for the elections last year that this kind of crap doesn't get to me anymore, so say all you want.
Well then how about you try using the time you spend ignoring me by actually answering some of the points made against you by other people? How about you engage in conversation? How about you do something other than act like a robot for something you clearly don't even understand. If I wanted a parrot I'd have bought one, now show me why the hell I should listen to you.
Why should I waste my time with anti-union right wing nuts that wouldn't believe it anyway?
Unions have a substantial impact on the compensation and work lives of both unionized and non-unionized workers. This report presents current data on unions’ effect on wages, fringe benefits, total compensation, pay inequality, and workplace protections.
Some of the conclusions are:
Unions raise wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise compensation, including both wages and benefits, by about 28%.
Unions reduce wage inequality because they raise wages more for low- and middle-wage workers than for higher-wage workers, more for blue-collar than for white-collar workers, and more for workers who do not have a college degree.
Strong unions set a pay standard that nonunion employers follow. For example, a high school graduate whose workplace is not unionized but whose industry is 25% unionized is paid 5% more than similar workers in less unionized industries.
The impact of unions on total nonunion wages is almost as large as the impact on total union wages.
The most sweeping advantage for unionized workers is in fringe benefits. Unionized workers are more likely than their nonunionized counterparts to receive paid leave, are approximately 18% to 28% more likely to have employer-provided health insurance, and are 23% to 54% more likely to be in employer-provided pension plans.
Unionized workers receive more generous health benefits than nonunionized workers. They also pay 18% lower health care deductibles and a smaller share of the costs for family coverage. In retirement, unionized workers are 24% more likely to be covered by health insurance paid for by their employer.
Unionized workers receive better pension plans. Not only are they more likely to have a guaranteed benefit in retirement, their employers contribute 28% more toward pensions.
Unionized workers receive 26% more vacation time and 14% more total paid leave (vacations and holidays).
Unions play a pivotal role both in securing legislated labor protections and rights such as safety and health, overtime, and family/medical leave and in enforcing those rights on the job. Because unionized workers are more informed, they are more likely to benefit from social insurance programs such as unemployment insurance and workers compensation. Unions are thus an intermediary institution that provides a necessary complement to legislated benefits and protections.
The union wage premium
It should come as no surprise that unions raise wages, since this has always been one of the main goals of unions and a major reason that workers seek collective bargaining. How much unions raise wages, for whom, and the consequences of unionization for workers, firms, and the economy have been studied by economists and other researchers for over a century (for example, the work of Alfred Marshall). This section presents evidence from the 1990s that unions raise the wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise total compensation by about 28%.
The research literature generally finds that unionized workers’ earnings exceed those of comparable nonunion workers by about 15%, a phenomenon known as the “union wage premium.”
H. Gregg Lewis found the union wage premium to be 10% to 20% in his two well-known assessments, the first in the early 1960s (Lewis 1963) and the second more than 20 years later (Lewis 1986). Freeman and Medoff (1984) in their classic analysis, What Do Unions Do?, arrived at a similar
Conclusion.
http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/
Now where are your facts?
About time, it only took you sixty five posts on here to actually do something useful. You should lead with that next time.
Though, these aren't facts, they're percentages, and percentages and statistics like these are not very accurate and practically useless. All you've told me is the ratio of people in unionized jobs as compared to those without unionized jobs. That doesn't actually help your cause. You think it does because it says "more likely", but more likely doesn't actually mean anything in reality. So you should really be asking yourself where your facts are. you're the one who made the board post, remember?
I want to see some facts from you about braille literacy then if you think you know it all.
I like how anyone who gets proven wrong thinks that the opposition is saying they know it all. Does that mean that you know nothing, or does the transverse argument not apply to you? Maybe your union rep can protect you from it.
I gave you a fact about braille literacy. I gave it in the first post, when I first mentioned it. A habit I highly suggest you try to pick up if you can manage it. If you look back you'll find it I'm sure. that is assuming you learned reading skills along with your memorization of union rhetoric.
I am a union rep I don't need protection from people like you anti-union scabs.
I just love how the rich one percent think they proved me wrong, yeah right. You will probably be one of the bosses I fight for my members against some day because of your corprit greed.
Wow, I'm part of the rich one percent? That's a really really poor one percent. You do realize that words have meanings right? You can't just say something and have it apply to everyone right? I mean, you do actually realize that simple fact. Its a basic tenet of the english language. Not all words apply to every situation. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they are rich, or right wing, or going to join a corporation. It is actually possible for people to go through life and create their own opinions of things. I know that's hard for you to imagine because you've never done it yourself, but others actually like to be independent and not a sheep. You'll get it some day, don't worry.
It must be nice living off your parents getting your nice little private college paid for. I paid for my whole college with loans I have to pay back not a spoiled brat listening to my parents quoting everything they told me to think.
Hmmm, so the job I work plus an internship and the rent I pay out of my own pocket is actually my parents? Wow, that's really interesting. How does that work exactly? Cuz I'm pretty sure it comes out of my paycheck, not there's. And yeah, I had loans too. You're nothing special.
Look, if you want to go tit for tat, I can do it, but trust me, I'm better than you at it. I can argue an unintelligent little pipsqueak like you into the ground while drunk. it wouldn't be the first time. Yes, I'm conceited, yes, I'm an asshole, no I don't care so no you don't have to tell me. So if you want to do it some more, I'll be glad to, but don't whine when I do like you've done already.
My suggestion to you though, and you're not going to take it but here it is, is to stick with what you know. Feel free to go spout your union catch phrases to your friends down at the coffee shop and play your music. You have fun with that. I'll go get a real job, do my artistic stuff on the side, and laugh at you while you bag my groceries and complain about the state of the world. Ok pumpkin?
Yeah sure, you do that, but I don't think you would shop at my union run grocery store where my United Food and Commercial Workers brothers and sisters work and at least when they bag groceries they work their asses off unlike you who is a complete asshole and does nothing good for this world.
Wow, cool. Because I hold conservitave beliefs and values, I'm one of the 1 percent? Hot damn! Could someone please inform my bank account of this new development? Oh yeah, proud to be a "rightwing nut" too and even more proud to be from Texas, a right to work state.
Why do many in unions feel it so necessary to start with the name calling, i.e. rightwing nut and antiunion scab? So, now that you've managed to insult people who you might be trying to bring to your side, assuming we gave a shit about your opinion, please explain how your devisive words and attitude toward those of us who hold other beliefs are going to help us see things your way. Oh wait, that's rightk, you don't care. Good, that'll save us all some time.
Have you ever thought about why postal workers hours are getting cut? Guess what, it's because the post office is friggen broke. You can't pay someone if you don't have the money no matter what the unions want.
Also, have you ever considered that perhaps all the raises in pay that union workers have gotten might be part of why companies ship jobs over seas? Employers don't provide jobs out of a sense of philanthropy. They hire workers because they need people to make their products and therefore turn a profit. If they can't afford to pay American workers because of all the regulations and what not, they'll take their jobs over seas where they can run their businesses as they see fit.
And what about the teachers' unions who refuse to allow performance based evaluations. They want their pay based on seniority. I don't give 2 flying blue fucks if you've been teaching for 25 years. If your students can't read, then you don't deserve a raise. Period. The end! This goes for any job. IF an employee sucks at his or her job, then he or she should lose it and be replaced with a better employee. It's called competition and that's what drives a free market.
Look, I'm not saying all unions are bad. As a matter of fact, my dad was a union member and is now enjoying a nice retirement thanks to his union benefits. I'm not saying they don't have value. What I am saying though is that some of them seem to want to hold their respective industries hostages to their demands, many times at the expense of said industry, or said industry's customers i.e. school kids and tax payers with the teachers' unions.
Also, and I'm actually asking this seriously because I'm honestly curious. Why has your union number changed from 26 to 44 to 52 in 2 weeks?
All this nonsense is worse than the Special Invitation one from our friend overdrive.
Sorry, I know I went a little overboard with the argumentative stuff, but damn if it wasn't fun.
My union number? I am not sure what you are refering to. I never put my local number here.
Hmm, I thought I had seen it. Perhaps I was wrong. My bad.
No problem, and this topic is much more serious than the Overdrive person. I am reading that one now and having a blast. Sorry I couldn't make this one that much fun. And we will just agree to disagree about politics.
Many times, that is best. lol
Am I the only one who thinks that once you call people right wing nutjobs and say that anyone who disagrees with you is part of the one percent and greedy corporatists that you're not then allowed to say that you gree to disagree? That's not disagreement, that's ignorance and political biggotry.,
For me, it's more of a method of picking my battles. There's absolutely nothing in this world, facs and common sense included, that any of us can say that's going to change her mind. In turn, there's nothing she can say that's going to change mine. While I don't appreciate being thought of as a nut because of my conservative beliefs, it's going to happen because of the devisive nature of politics and those leading either side. If you can't beat'em, call'em names. IF you can't beat their facts, attack them personally, etc. Getting all riled up about it isn't going to do anything other than tick me off. Frankly, there's much more in life that ticks me off that I can actually do something about.
Now, SL, don't let that stop you, as I find your arguing skills much better than mine. lol
I appreciate the complement, but I think I've tilted against enough windmills in this post. It was fun to tie her in knots, run circles around her, whatever imagery you want to use, but that fun has passed.
While I do agree with you that one should pick one's battles, my point is that for her to belittle us for having conservative ideologies, then to say that we will have to agree to disagree is extremely disingenuous. Basically what she is doing is insulting us, then when we rise up to defend ourselves, she dismisses us like so many gnats.
If you look back along this post you will see several times when I and other people asked her to support her argument. It is a pity she doesn't have the courage or fortitude in her argument to give us the same consideration. Not a surprising pity mind you, but a pity.
I agree with much of this. First of all, my first couple of student jobs came with help from government funding. So I am not going to totally discount the help that can kickstart a blind person. Second, I use Braille every day in my job and, while I agree that it is far from necessary to carry bulky volumes around in this day and age, I think it is important that all blind people learn Braille to enhance their literacy. That said, far too often, it seems that blind people settle for being sheltered by their parents or relatives, settle for letting others find work and recreational opportunities on their behalf, settle for quote unquote having no life, when they often are far too intelligent to accept that path. I know one guy, age 30, whose mother comes twice a week to dispose of his garbage and wash his dishes! It is those people ... people who will fight and battle against any petty thing they may disagree with but who won't return a phone call from an employer or initiate a job search, that give the rest of us a bad name.
Exactly, that is what I was trying to get my point across.
Okay, okay. I can see this ones not happening. I really wanted to know her opinion, or why she holds them I should say, not read the union booklet.
Thank you. I can see I'm not getting my answers.
Hello there, fellow friend. I must say I am the variety which you like to call a right winged nut, and a radical on the other side. I am a capitalist. but no matter I am not against you personally. must I mention I have a big collection of union music, and listen to it all the time. it interests me. but I don't understand it so I thought since you are such an expert at unions and are even studying to be one, can you please help me get there, you might even convert me to be on the other side! my ears are opened my mind is poised. I just want to mention how entertaining this topic has been to read and I thank you for that, but I do think we should get to work arguing after 90 posts of humor, don't you? I believe in the beginning you were trying to persuade us to your cause in the first place and that is what you intend or you would not have bothered to paste something and type up those extra words in the first post to create this very topic right here I am typing on, and you could have done something else that day. but I believe and you, union musician can go right ahead to tell me if I am wrong but in order to persuade anyone, we need to put forth some reasons, and arguements to those first wide arguments. We need a premise to that first argument some base to are claims, no? is that not true? and reasonable? is it not important to persuade people effectively, that they don't just become robots and so they may know all your reasons? you achieve this, by giving them something which to convince them, is that not so? An opinion is just that, an opinion. nothing else, baseless and airy in itself. how is anyone suppose to be convinced? After all the details define life, not the statistics nore does baseless first claims that just is the surface. we hear you we're listening, we know and respect what you think, I do at least, you have told us the number 10 exist, but we don't yet know how to get to 10 we don't know how to ad this equation up. Is it not best to supply us with the knowledge to get to the number 10? as in 2 plus 8 gets us to ten or 5 plus 5 or 6 plus 4 or 3 plus 7? we don't know those facts. we know a ten exist, you told us from the get go. now we need to discover why we must get there and how. is that not correct. and if so what is so wrong with backing up your statements to supply us with the exact details we need to know to be convinced of that we need to stick with the unions? if you disagree with me at any point please do teach me and show me why and what we should do instead. a lesson in philosophy from you personally union musician would be most welcomed.
FFirst off, post 91, run on sentences much? Second of all. Cody, I was just taught how to say kiss my ass in Gaelic the other day, therefore disproving your theory that Gaelic is obsolete. Haha. Ok, all jokes aside, I agree with much that has been said, but not the bilge from the first poster. The one thing I find disconcerting, as one who strives to become a professional musician, the fact that she belittles performing in "Crappy bars" and not being paid much. Hate to point out the obvious, but ya gotta start somewhere. You gotta start out in those bars and places like that, because we all do this music thing for the love of it, for the need to make someone feel something. At least, that's why I do it, and to make money, I plan to teach and damn me if I'm poor, I'd much rather be poor and doing something which I love, than rich and unhappy with my life choices.
Sorry about the tangent. It just had to be said. Anyway, braille is most certainly not obsolete. There is a ten percent literacy rate among blind students and that needs to grow. I've always been a huge advocate for braille literacy, how else are you supposed to learn to read as a child? Do sighted kids learn to read fully using computers? I don't think fully, just as we shouldn't have to either. As for Voc rehab, they definitely are helping me to get where I'm going, and although I struggle with them on a daily basis, and even though the system is a right clusterfuck, they have helped me and hopefully will continue to assist. Do they frankly suck at times? Absolutely, but if you want to get somewhere and that's your only viable option, don't work against the system. Everyone needs help, even the most independent of people, but do not look down upon those blind people who's only option is to work in those shops, or to take assistance from Voc Rehab.
I have to catch a flight, and don't have time to deal with this right now, but will be back.
*grins* fine with me my dear friend, take your time, but I hope you may be able to explain your side to me? I am so very eager to learn from you my dear, labor union girl. thank you for even responding, but hopefully next time you post I hope to hear about all your answers, As I have just said I am truly eager to discover your side of the story, and don't mind the little flies on here if you don't want to, remember my friend, I am reading, and shall be very happy to discuss with you civilly.
Smile.
I'm really glad she just waisted an entire post telling us about a flight she had, when she could have just gotten back to us later. :)
Oh, I had forgotten the music part, thank you for reminding me sam. As a musician myself, and a friend of numerous, I find it laughable that the thing she complains about is pay. I know several people who perform for free, in dive bars, or for drinks, just because they love to play. They don't care if they get paid ten dollars or a thousand dollars, they just like to play the music. Those people who want to get paid the big bucks simply because they can pick a string or sing, we call them sell outs, and we kick their ass in the alley behind their fancy clubs.
Couldn't have said that any better Cody. Sounds like a lot of the people I go to school with that scoff at certain gigs they get. and just play them because "They want the big bucks." If you just wanna play for money, where's the joy in that? As India Ari says, "I do this for the love of music, not for the glitter and gold."
If you do it for the love of music, you will never make a living at what you do. I love what I do, but don't do it for the hell of it. It is my job and not a hobby.
to the last poster, that's the biggest load of crap I think I've ever heard. you've got that totally wrong, so let me clear it up for you. if you don't love what you do, and aren't the least bit passionate about your craft/talent, people are gonna notice. not only are they gonna know, but they're gonna stop coming to your shows, or giving you money, cause if you don't care, why the hell should they?
The majority of the people who have jobs that are involved in art, music, dance, acting, etc. absolutely love their job. It is their life to some of them, and like Chelsea said it shows. Granted some jobs I can understand why you would hate such as working in a factory or if you work in a job where you are surrounded by a bunch of douche bags. However, you do have a choice as to whether you stay in that job, take the crap and earn a living, or stay unemployed for a time until you find something more decent.
Yes. Selective answering.
fuck them people they belong in those shops. fuck the union.
I think I just lost inteligence from reading miss Union crazed's post. She ignored me btw. But if you don't do it for the love of music, what have you? "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am but sounding brass or clanging symbol." Agreed with Chelse and Ryan.
I am so proud to be union!
Good, I'm glad you're proud to be union. Though, its proud to be in a union, its not like a union is a heightened state of eing or anything. Either way though, you have demonstrated nicely that union is pretty much all you are, so its good you're proud of it. One might have thought you'd go for being proud to be intelligent, or well argued, or articulate, or honest, or hav good and sound opinions, or ay number of other qualities you sorely lack, but at least you have that one straw to desperately cleave to.
I love to irritate hateful Republicans.
who said Cody's republican? union girl, for one who claims she's so eager to change people's sometimes unnecessarily judgmental attitudes about things, you sure are doing a fantastic job at making assumptions yourself.
shall we talk about your values my dear friend, you neglected to teach me, and as I was so eager to learn your answers well! was I oh so disappointed! I thought you said in your profile you loved helping people? and you would do it whenever you are on? or did you not? or do you simply not remember shall I pull it out of your profile and remind you. Besides, you claim to want to help anyone and everyone! is that not still holding true? and you'd be happy to teach whoever about labor unions. surely you can help me, I am blatantly explicitly, and obviously asking for your help, so does your statements of helping people not hold true anymore. you simply ignored my post my very good friend. and fluttered past me. As someone who wants to learn, I believe I garner much more attention. Besides what would your members and union sisters say to a missed opportunity? would they not be upset that you just ignored a person in need? And, you are so much for that, anyway, you claim you want to help the whole world, here I am a perfet opportunity for you, I need help so why not help me? is it so very burdensome to do so? Why am I more burdensome then others? and, if you really have such a big heart would it matter? I thought people who liked to help didn't care how big the load was, or do they now? and, I happen to notice another contradiction my teacher I wish to ask you about, and I eagerly want to learn your answer! so you claim you're passionate about your music yet you only want to do it as a job and get payed. so which is it? do you want the money or do you do it for the passion? let me ask you a question please? what does it mean to be passionate about one's subject? does it mean you demand money and only do it for ones job? or does it mean it's one's lifestyle? If it's a lifestyle as I think you might respond, then why should the money matter? why separate the job from the hobby? but if you choose to define the passion as being on the job then that's a different set of questions but I doubt it is how passionate and how dedicated you are to your music as you've been trying to tel uss long and hard. andd your very kind nature as in saying over and over again how you want to help people, surely you're not all about the money as these unkind people are who are usually not helpful at all on the contrary, I know you want to help as many people as you can out there, you've sure talked enough about it. I don't think you se the village of people in need of that very wonderful and gracious help of yours that is present here, no matter if they acknowledge it or not, I have though, wise teacher. If you go back to the first page, you will see on the first post of this topic I did ask you a series of question, could you please anser my questions in your own words and in some detail? thank you very much!
I think the UAW needs to fix this car. Its broken.
what does it need to fix my dear friend and I have not gotten a single answer from you quite yet to these new or old answers.
So you are a friend of labor?
you can say or rather a eager learner who has got no true side I have been taught by some from the left and from the right never in detail, so I dont really understand anything
Well if you have a union at your workplace, you will have good liveable wages, no employer abuse at least without the employer getting away with it, and so many other benefits. And music is my job, not my hobby. I love what I do but make a living at it as well. Like doctors love what they do but that doesn't mean they give themselves away free.
so it means you are not passionate about music? you do it as a job and then stop doing it? so if there's no job you're not interested in music? your life is not filled with it?
but the union is not free so once you have so much money you still have to pay so much more to get in to the union. so how exactly do unions help what do they do?
My union makes sure I have a secure contract for my jobs. THey make sure I get paid and they stop my employers from treating me like crap. I pay my union dues no matter what.
and if you do not pay these dues, what happens? do they stop helping you? why do unions collect dues anyway?
yes, Rachel, unions stop helping you if you don't give them money.
I prefer that she would have answered,
so union labor girl, what is the point of dues? why pay them?and, if unions was to help why would you want to pay them for them to want to help anyway?
Ok,a few little things I noticed. First of all, I'm not a republican. I'm a conservative, but I'm not a republican. Yes, I realize you're brain just exploded from that seeming contradiction. There is more than one political ideology that has conservative values, which you'd know if you knew anything that didn't involve unions.
Second, you've got a long way to go before you upset me, and you really don't want to do it. I'm not pleasant when I get upset.
Anyway, away from me. Doctors frequently give away their services for free. There are free clinics, volunteer clinics, and a little organization called doctors without borders for which they don't get paid. They do it because they love to help people in need. same with musicians, lots of bands I listen to give away their music for free. You can go online and download them free of charge, with no piracy, because its put up by the band itself. They invite you to download it. They do that because they love the music, not the money.
So try again union girl. You're still wrong. Maybe if you keep stabbing away you'll run across something that's actually correct for once.
She ignored me. So classy she is, ignoring anyone's ideals who do not connect or intersect with her own. Love how you keep running rings around her Cody, and Miss Rachel, at least Chelsea has the decency to answer your question. If you get an answer, take your source. Just sayin.
thank you, Sam. Rachel, I was trying to extend a kindness that our union girl has yet to: answer a question that's asked of her. since I knew she wouldn't do so, I thought I'd share what I know.
like Cody, I know of artists who allow their stuff to be downloaded for free. it's really refreshing to see, actually, cause that shows they realize music's true value.
You'll be waiting forever for that answer. Eventually she'll have the whole site on ignore, because eventually she'll realize no one on here cares about those beliefs, , especially after they are continuously drilled in to our stomachs and pounded in to our skulls, and everyone will tell her to shut the hell up.
We don't help free-loaders if that's what you are asking.
Right, so everyone has rights, but only if you pay for them. If you don't, you're a freeloader, and the unions won't do crap for you. That's areally humanistic organization you've got there. And you say that the corporations are greedy. You've got blinders on that could work as sunglasses on venus.
but union labor girl, there is no need to be rude is there? I thought your values and your side teaches you to be kind to all and be charitable? you claim that you are isn't it? now if you claim people who don't pay are free loaders what of those union members to poor to pay? they are willing to work hard, however? also, I thought your union values meant that you believe in humanitarian acts and you give money to the poor and "free loaders?" people off the streets your current status or one of your passed statuses say you will feed starving children but they won't ever pay you back nor will the bum on the street, will they? so where do you draw the line?
I mean we don't help scabs. Unions are there so people don't have to be poor. If you work in a union shop, if you wanted to be represented, pay your dues.
I literally couldn't afford to take a job during college because I would have to join the union. I was very poor and so the $75 from the first check meant the difference between it being worth something or not, so I went and worked at a non union place.
My brother in law was forced to strike, against his will, as a college student, from a grocery store. I think he was still able to keep his job. But a guy like that sure took it on both sides of the face - one from the Unions forcing him to strike, the other by the conservative types calling him a union lazy worker or whatever. Both are equally useless, in my opinion, because all too often, ideologues are useless and haven't lived outside of mommy and daddy. Just the point of view of a guy who has had to scratch and scrabble for everything he's got.
as usual, very well said, Leo. extremes of any kind just aren't healthy and benefit no one.
but there is not anyone who is not a scab that is unable to pay? not that he doesn't want to. and it sounds more and more like some fishy business the more and more you talk, my friend, are you certain, you're not contradicting yourself?
Of course not, if you have a union job you are earning a living wage.
Some unions I'll say have done good for they people that belong, but most just exploit them for the funds and don't work for it.
Unions kept my parents working in the hay day of unions, but not everyone and every job will require such.
so how much of your paycheck or rather how much do you usually pay a union? and if you're yourself starting a union how much is fair to ask for in terms of dues?
It takes three or more workers to form a union, so I alone can not start a union. Dues depend on your union. I pay $100 a year. Workers have to vote for a union in their workplace.
So what would you call a group of workers who don't vote to join a union? And what happens to those who say that they don't want a union, but lose the vote? And what happens if someone can't afford to pay dues for some reason? What if their child gets cancer and it saps all the extra money they have? Would the union still represent them then?
All very interesting questions Cody. I agree Leo, both sides do seem equally useless. The one union that I may consider as helpful is the teacher's union, to be honest. As teachers receive so little pay for all the work they do, maybe that union would be benificial and fight for what they deserve, but as I have a best friend in that union, I'm not sure how helpful they've been to her. Honestly, every system is corrupt somehow, none is perfect.
Oh the teacher's union is terrible Sam. They want seniority pay, which is a terrible idea, especially if you are a young teacher with fresh new ideas.
hello Union girl, I live in Australia so things are a little different but similar here.
I belong to a union, I pay $500 each year.
I appreciate what my union does.
but I think your first post lacked wisdom., maybe if you had asked peoples oppinions first you would have been able to make your statements understanding and respecting a wider view.
I personally think that (dirty little oar's) reply said it all and was a good reference point.
it would pay you to read dirty little oar's reply again and reflect on it I think.
I lost my sight as a young adult and found the association here for helping me rehabilitate was good in the practical skills but was completely useless as regards to finding me employment.
they had no idea back then and gave me no constructive assistance getting employment.
I found my own way, but having said that they are a good help to many blind persons.
for the blind everything is so much more expensive, screen readers, adaptive technology etc and without financial assistance many blind people would go without!
I do trust you fight for your members for their benefits but please don't discount all the avenues blind persons need to assist them.
I think you are genuine but make rash uninformed statements
As the spouse of a transit union member, it is incredibly frustrating to see ineffective unions. My husband pays union dues, and what do they go for? A 100-year anniversary party where it was all pro-NDP/anti-conservative political propaganda, and the union not fighting harder to mitigate changes in the pensions of its members.. While I can appreciate the benefits of unions, I don't believe you HAVE to have a union to get good working conditions or have your rights honored...
Sorry you feel that way fellow worker. But if you will research, the NFB had strong unions in its members sheltered workshops for years that did great things.
You obviously haven't read a word I said... I never once said that my husband was part of the NFB union... my husband is not even visually impaired!
If you think unions, by their very nature of being unions, are going to solve all worker's problems, you are clearly dillusional.
The NFB is not a union fellow worker and I do not and never will belong to it. I do like some of the things they do however.
We have medical funds for people that can't dues and for other reasons. Your wages in a union shop are such that no one is poor so everyone can aford dues.
You are right Crazy Kate, she sees only what she wishes to see. She even answers questions, but only the ones she wishes to answer. If it is something she doesn't want to answer she ignores it. Lol
We are not claiming to be fellow union workers, so stop referring to us as such. You don't see people in the NFB people going around calling every single person a fellow federationalist.
Wow, sorry for those typos.
Um, well, I have heard of people calling NFB members federationists, but that's beside the point. What I really have to say about this whole topic can be summed up in one word: idealism. Union girl, your views are extremely shortsighted. You think you can change the world just because your experience has taught you so. Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but that ain't happening. You could, theoretically, change the world you know, AKA the people that matter to you, if they come around to your views. But you're going to have to present far more compelling arguments than you have thus far. As I see it, your heart is in the right place, but you need the intellectualism to back it up. Without that, without solid views and beliefs to back up all that you say, you're acting like a spoiled toddler who's throwing a tantrum. No one ever got anywhere on pure bursts of emotion. There has to be thought driving the emotion, at the very least, and from what you've demonstrated on this and other recent topics I've been reading, there really hasn't been much of that from you.
I have little use for idealistic people. you could call me a pessimist, if you really wanted to, but the truth is, life knocks you on your ass more often than it offers you breaks. You can hang onto your big dreams of shutting down sheltered workshops, obliterating Braille, and getting fair wages for all workers, but A. that's a pipe dream, and hopefully you know it and B. there are holes that have been punched wide open through your weak arguments that have already been well articulated here. And, I'm one of those who feels that Braille is extremely important for any blind child or adult to learn or use. Taking that away would be like taking print away from the sighted. Sure, you could argue that almost everything nowadays is digital, even for them, but it's not the same at all. They still LOOK at a screen, still SEE the print before their eyes. They don't listen to anything the way we do. You can often hear a sighted person comment on how incomprehensible a screen reader is, in fact, if they're exposed to one. So explain to me why Braille isn't the same way? Why it isn't a lifeline? Why it isn't the path to literacy?
shattered sanity, Ryan was saying that people in the NFB don't typically go around calling each other "fellow federationists," not that they don't use the term "federationists."
Oh yeah you think there will never be better wages for workers, every day unions across the country win contract negotiations or gain new members, so i think you non-union right wing assholes are the ones who are idealistic.
And by the way, fellow worker does not mean just union workers, it is a greeting to non-union workers as well. Maybe do some research and look up a few things for yourselves instead of thinking you know everything for once!
Smile. Maybe I should ask my questions with union someplace in the question.
Example, why fellow union worker, do you feel the union blind do not need braille anymore?
Yeah, I meant not everyone does. I have heard it from a few of them, but they don't call everyone they encounter a federationist.
As for calling everyone a fellow worker, there does not have to be any research done. I go to school. I can't work because my tuition for school will not be covered, I won't get as much SSI, and before I get sacked for saying that, that is how I make money to feed myself for now when my meal plan is out of swipes for the week. There are people who depend solely on SSI either because they have to, or because they want to and don't see the point of earning their own income. Should we call those people fellow workers? What about the people who work under the table through their own private illegal businesses. What about the people who sell illegal hard drugs. Should we refer to those people as good intentioned, fellow workers? I don't think so, and I don't need more credit than I deserve, thank you.
Yes, in the Industrial Workers of the World, everyone that works or that tried to work is a fellow worker. There is even a sex workers union.
My mistake, Distance runner. I misunderstood you, and I now see your point. If someone randomly walked up to me and called me a federationist just because I'm blind, well, I'd have to punch them right in the face.
Wait a minute! It all makes sense now. The Industrial Workers of the World, IWW, was a pseudo-communist organization set up in the early 1900s. The "fellow worker" is sort of like the communist-popularized "comrade"; a meanless term used to make people feel equal!
For the record, I'm a computer programmer, thus do not work in an industrial sector, thus am not a fellow worker. I encourage you to keep this in mind when discussing with me. For the other record, I am in complete contempt of the IWW, thus you might want to look to that ignore link, at least as far as I have heard.
So as far as you have heard, meaning you don't know what you believe? I would do some research first before you go calling something communist.
He was saying that he's heard all you do is ignore people who disagree with you, so you'll just ignore him now because he disagreed with you. Which is right, you do, and once you realize he was disagreeing with you, you probably will ignore him, because you're spineless and can't say anything I couldn't read off a protest pin.
Nor did I say it was currently communist. I said that it began as a communist organization. In fact, its first prominent leader, Eugine Debs, ran several times unsuccessfully, as the communist party's candidate for the American presidency. He was, in fact, buried in the walls of the then-soviet Kremlin. Ahh research, what a nice thing.
I am glad you know so much about the Wobblies. I am not a member but was a while back.
Knowing something about something doesn't mean you agree with it. I know a lot about hitler and the nazis, I know a lot about the slave owning south. It doesn't mean I agree with the nazis or that I own slaves. God you're a dipshit.
Wow you are so mature when all you can do is call people names. It sure says so much about you. I hope you grow up some day but you probably won't so what ever.
And if you think it gets to me, it doesn't because I deal with people like you every working day, so have a good life and this topic is done as far as I am concerned.
The reason I wrote this letter as unprofessional as it was in the first place, was because I felt this guy at the NFB was speaking for all blind people. Well he was not speaking for me.
So you write a letter that no one would take seriously in retaliation? Really great strategy there. I don't think you have any room to talk about maturity, with that attitude.
I have appologized and have stated myself that it wasn't professional. You must have missed those posts. I was frustrated when I wrote the letter and got repremanded by my unions' leadership, well-deserved I might add as it was not what union representatives should write.
This is my problem with unions. You, not the union, wrote the letter. If you yourself thought it was overboard, you should apologize or whatever to your decision. Instead, your union decides to butt in, telling you that first, your letter was not fit for a union member to write and second, that you should apologize for it. Unless you specifically stated that these views were those of the union, your union should have nothing to do with this. This would be considered censorship. Now, I assume that your union contract contains a phrase like "And everything you write gets our approval or you're reprimanded", but then again, you signed it. So why do you think this letter is any of your union's business?
Because I am a delegate of the union a representative.
Does the union direct other aspects of your life? What time you go to sleep? The kind of coffee you drink? Maybe the man or woman you sleep with?
*sigh* just had to.
Sure, I drink only union made coffee. I bet the NFB directs your lives too since you seem to quote their statements so much on this website. I can't understand why most of you don't like unions since the NFB is pretty much like one.
Again, dipshit.
The wheels on the union bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...
And the bus drivers don't text while they are driving either. And those that call me stupid childish names here I could care less because I don't even know you and it really shows your imaturity.
actually, dipshit, the fact you're retracting this whole thing simply cause your beloved union told you to, demonstrates your inability to think for yourself in any copacity, which also shows you don't practice what you preach. I know you enjoy talking big and all, but it's ashame your beloved union hasn't shown you A, how to put your money where your mouth is, and B, that actually putting that into practice is how you'll truly be successful. then again, you could be learning those very things from this horrible union.
Can you please learn how to spell, and you need to research what labor unions are before you say they are horrible. You can't judge until you have been a member. Thanks to my union I actually make a living at what I do.
Oh and by the way, come up with another word, be original, dipshit has already been used.
Dr. Cavorkian also made a living at what he did. So did the guy who controled the gillatine in the French Revolution. Crooked cops still get paid. Bad teachers still pull in a paycheck. Just because you make a living doing it, doesn't mean its worth doing.
Judging by the fact that you clearly can't have an independent thought without the union controlling yu by remote, the fact that you couldn't form an independent thought into a cohesive argument even if you could have one, and the fact that you've proven yourself to be a completely shameless moron who is happy to be led by the nose and knows absolutely nothing for herself, I'd say its a damned good thing you work for the union. You certainly couldn't be a corporate worker, or any kind of officer, you don't have the brain power. You can only sit back and criticize those who make a difference because they don't fit into your view of the perfect world.
I'm glad you only know the unions, anything ore than that would kill you.
I am just glad I am not asshole management like you. I bet you treat your workers like scum idiot!
I personally don't remember making NFB statements, since I don't belong to the NFB. Have you read my post?
My last statement was a poke at fun, so we shell call that a P A F statement. I don't belong to that group either, but...
You do realize that there are other groups besides workers and managers right? Like, people who work for themselves. Published authors who write for a living. You know, some of those other people that are outside your perview? Am I using too big of words or something? Cuz this is really going over your head. Maybe you should find a forum in an elementary school, they'll probably be able to make you understand what they're saying. You speak their language.
Hahaha that's just funny.
Why should people be nice when you trash our beliefs if they go against the Union? Why are you being hypocritical in the sense of name calling? You called people names, but when people call you names you don't like it? You are bringing this on your self, so don't bitch and whine when people try to defend themselves and keep you in your place. The best analogy I can come up for this situation is a worm who tries to bite, then when it is bitten it tries to wiggle its way out and bite. I'm sure someone can come up with a better one, because I'm kind of tired right now, but I like analigies.
I can spell just fine, thanks. I'm also able to back up everything I say with evidence, not to mention personal experience that's well thought out. no one sways me, or tells me what to believe. if I were to write a letter expressing something I found distasteful, it certainly wouldn't be written at the level of a kid in elementary school. oh, I hate to break it to you, but Cody's right about some of us working for ourselves. it's such a great feeling, let me tell you.